{"id":12696,"date":"2012-03-08T19:49:00","date_gmt":"2012-03-09T00:49:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.www.liveactionnews.org\/?p=12696"},"modified":"2013-04-02T21:18:57","modified_gmt":"2013-04-03T01:18:57","slug":"response-to-pro-choice-blogger-youre-begging-the-question","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/response-to-pro-choice-blogger-youre-begging-the-question\/","title":{"rendered":"Response to pro-choice blogger: you\u2019re begging the question"},"content":{"rendered":"
<\/div>

Somebody emailed me this blog post<\/a> by someone who goes by the name \u201cuncloseyourmind.\u201d I want to offer a brief response to get him or her thinking more about the issue.<\/p>\n

Common Ground<\/strong>
\nHere\u2019s where we agree: uncloseyourmind opens the post by saying we need to talk about abortion. I whole-heartedly agree. Lots of people don\u2019t want to talk about this, but whether pro-life or pro-choice people are right, this issue is an important one. If pro-choice people are right, then people like me want a medical procedure that\u2019s tantamount to having a mole removed to become illegal. If pro-life people are right, then around 3,300 human beings will be wrongfully killed in America today. (Based on Guttmacher stats<\/a>.) Either way it\u2019s an important issue worth talking and thinking carefully about.<\/p>\n

We also agree that women are persons, although we have a different definition of personhood. The word \u201cperson\u201d is not preferable to me to describe anybody, because the word \u201cperson\u201d is a legal term that\u2019s been used in history to discriminate against different communities of human beings. I prefer to just say \u201chuman being,\u201d because I believe all human beings are intrinsically valuable. I don\u2019t know how you make sense of the concept of \u201cequal human rights\u201d without believing that humans have inherent value.<\/p>\n

Personhood Criteria<\/strong>
\nUncloseyourmind asserts that a person can be identified by asking these four questions:
\n<\/strong><\/strong><\/p>\n

\n

1. Can the entity act in the world and respond to its environment?<\/p>\n

2. Is the entity aware of its own existence?<\/p>\n

3. Does the entity possess rights and duties?<\/p>\n

4. If it can claim the right to live, does it live independently?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Obviously an unborn child, at least in the first trimester, doesn\u2019t qualify under those standards as a person, except for arguably the first question. An embryo responds to its environment from fertilization.<\/p>\n

The third question is actually a perfect example of circular reasoning<\/a>, as the question at play is whether the unborn has rights. In other words, the implicit argument goes like this: \u201cDoes the unborn have rights? That depends on 4 questions, one of which is whether the unborn has rights.\u201d Circular reasoning.<\/p>\n

The problem here is that I have no reason to believe that the other qualities, (responding to the world, self-awareness and independence\/viability) are morally relevant to determining a human being\u2019s value. Maybe they are morally relevant, but there is no argument made that these are the relevant questions to be asking. They\u2019re merely asserted, and then the blogger argues why the unborn don\u2019t qualify under those asserted qualifications. That\u2019s skipping a step, and it undermines the entire article. It undermines the entire article because every main point the blogger makes during the rest of the article assumes the unborn aren\u2019t \u201cpersons,\u201d and because that was never argued for, it\u2019s classic begging the question<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Allow me to illustrate with the blogger\u2019s next point.<\/p>\n

\u201cWhen abortion is illegal, women are not safe.\u201d<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

<\/strong>For sake of argument, let\u2019s assume that uncloseyourmind is correct and women around the world will continue to ignore abortion laws when they don\u2019t agree with them and pay for risky, illegal abortions. This is only a morally relevant point if the unborn are not full human beings like the mother is. If the unborn are not human, then I agree, we should make abortions as safe as possible, because the only human being in the equation (besides the abortionist) is the mother. If the unborn are human, then the safety of killing that human is not the topic we should be focused on.<\/p>\n

As Scott Klusendorf<\/a> says, “why should the law be faulted for making it more risky to kill innocent human beings?”<\/em><\/p>\n

You can see that the blogger is begging the question by bringing up the danger of illegal abortions without having first argued that the unborn are not \u201cpersons.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cNot all women who get pregnant can have safe pregnancies.\u201d<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

<\/strong>This is an example of a different informal logical fallacy: a strawman argument<\/a>. Virtually no pro-life people or organizations, including the Catholic Church<\/a>, are arguing that abortions to save the mother\u2019s life should be illegal. (A distinction is sometimes made that a life-saving procedure that saves the mother\u2019s life but results in the death of the embryo is not an \u201cabortion,\u201d but a life-saving medical procedure.) Whatever you call it, these procedures weren\u2019t illegal before Roe, and they wouldn\u2019t be illegal after Roe. That\u2019s because if the mother\u2019s life is at risk and the only way to save her life is to end the pregnancy, then it\u2019s morally permissible. You can get there by using double effect reasoning<\/a>, or you can use the philosophical concept of \u201cthird-party defense against an innocent aggressor.\u201d (Similar to self-defense.) It doesn\u2019t mean I think the unborn is not human in the case that the mother\u2019s life is in danger. It means that through careful philosophic reasoning we can make sense of the idea that it\u2019s morally permissible to take action to save a mother\u2019s life, for instance in the case of a tubal pregnancy<\/a>, even if we have the foreknowledge that the human embryo will not survive the surgery. Any careful thinker can differentiate between a salpingectomy<\/a> and an elective abortion.<\/p>\n

\u201cAn accidental pregnancy or a rape can destroy a woman\u2019s life if she does not have access to abortion.\u201d<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

I agree that pregnancy can be very difficult for a woman where the circumstances of conception involve rape. I\u2019ve talked to enough rape-victims that became pregnant and gave birth to their baby that I\u2019m a little weary of agreeing that this can \u201cdestroy a woman\u2019s life.\u201d That seems to assume a certain fragility about women that feels a little misogynistic to me, but that doesn\u2019t mean I think pregnancy is easy, under any circumstances.<\/p>\n

I also don\u2019t think rapists are punished enough in our society. They\u2019re often not even prosecuted for their crime<\/a>, and when they are, they get off with too light of a prison sentence<\/a> (in many states.) I say lock them up and throw away the key, because rape is one of the most evil and inhumane acts a human being can do to another human being.<\/p>\n

But my\u00a0colleague\u00a0Steve Wagner<\/a> asks a fair question here: “why should the child pay with her life for her father\u2019s crime?<\/em> The answer is yes if she\u2019s not a child, but just a blob of cells or \u201cpotential human,\u201d but that question has not been answered here.<\/p>\n

Another relevant question from Scott Klusendorf<\/a> would be this: how should our society treat people who remind us of a painful event?<\/em> If the entity in question is a human being like you and me, then the answer is certainly not to kill him or her. I think the answer is to punish the criminal to the fullest extent of the law so that justice can be done, and to pass legislation for stronger punishments for those criminals. Legislation like that would recognize the true horror that is rape, and I think our society would be better for it.<\/p>\n

Conclusion<\/strong>
\nPerhaps this blogger is right in that abortion should remain legal, but he or she has not actually argued for that position. He or she has simply asserted a very high bar that disqualifies the unborn from personhood as well as many other humans, including newborns and those that are disabled, and then argued from there. That is explained really well in a comment that was posted under the bloggers article, by an atheist who refers to himself as \u201cG.F.\u201d<\/p>\n

Read every word:
\n<\/strong><\/strong><\/p>\n

\n

I don\u2019t see how whether a child is a product of rape or not has anything to do with whether or not it should be aborted. From the perspective of someone who believes in rights for the unborn, the actions of its father are irrelevant. If your father went and raped someone, it would be ridiculous to advocate punishing you for his crime. Similarly, a child that is the product of rape should not be killed because it\u2019s father is a rapist.<\/p>\n

As for \u201cwhat qualifies as a person\u201d in this article, you seem to set a very high standard for \u201cpersonhood\u201d.<\/p>\n

People who are incarcerated or severely disabled may lack the ability to interact with their world \u2013 a prisoner is stuck behind four walls; a quadriplegic cannot eat, bathe, use the bathroom, etc. without assistance.<\/p>\n

Some people who are severely mentally disabled may also be \u201cunaware of their existence\u201d. At the very least, it would be difficult to assess whether they are or not.<\/p>\n

The severely handicapped also do not have any duties in society \u2013 for criminal actions, they can be ruled not criminally responsible due to mental defect. Are they not entitled to rights and protections? Should the disabled be euthanised?<\/p>\n

The fourth point is once again one of \u201cliving independently\u201d, something that the severely mentally or physically disabled, as well as young children, are incapable of doing.<\/p>\n

By your measure, many living, breathing human beings are not \u201cpersons\u201d.<\/p>\n

What I am suggesting is not a slippery slope fallacy \u2013 some abortion advocates ARE advocating infanticide.<\/p>\n

http:\/\/www.bioedge.org\/index.php\/bioethics\/bioethics_article\/9950<\/a><\/p>\n

http:\/\/jme.bmj.com\/content\/early\/2012\/02\/22\/medethics-2011-100411.abstract<\/a><\/p>\n

As an atheist and free-thinker, it I am appalled by the all-too-commonplace belief among atheists that human life, particularly for the most vulnerable members of society, has no value. The argument of many religious people that atheists are amoral is, unfortunately, often correct.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Somebody emailed me this blog post by someone who goes by the name \u201cuncloseyourmind.\u201d I want to offer a brief response to get him or her thinking more about the issue. Here\u2019s where we agree: uncloseyourmind opens the post by saying we need to talk about abortion. I whole-heartedly agree. Lots of people don\u2019t want to talk about this, but whether pro-life or pro-choice people are right, this issue is an important one.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":12789,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"om_disable_all_campaigns":false},"categories":[15],"tags":[],"yoast_head":"\nResponse to pro-choice blogger: you\u2019re begging the question - Live Action News<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/response-to-pro-choice-blogger-youre-begging-the-question\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Response to pro-choice blogger: you\u2019re begging the question - Live Action News\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Somebody emailed me this blog post by someone who goes by the name \u201cuncloseyourmind.\u201d I want to offer a brief response to get him or her thinking more about the issue. Here\u2019s where we agree: uncloseyourmind opens the post by saying we need to talk about abortion. I whole-heartedly agree. Lots of people don\u2019t want to talk about this, but whether pro-life or pro-choice people are right, this issue is an important one.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/response-to-pro-choice-blogger-youre-begging-the-question\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Live Action News\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:publisher\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/liveaction\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2012-03-09T00:49:00+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2013-04-03T01:18:57+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/2012\/03\/question.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"480\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"320\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Josh Brahm\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@josh-brahm\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:site\" content=\"@liveaction\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Josh Brahm\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"8 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/response-to-pro-choice-blogger-youre-begging-the-question\/#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/response-to-pro-choice-blogger-youre-begging-the-question\/\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"Josh Brahm\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/#\/schema\/person\/0ad5e6820d90e3781cae6febe5fc5439\"},\"headline\":\"Response to pro-choice blogger: you\u2019re begging the question\",\"datePublished\":\"2012-03-09T00:49:00+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2013-04-03T01:18:57+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/response-to-pro-choice-blogger-youre-begging-the-question\/\"},\"wordCount\":1617,\"commentCount\":17,\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/#organization\"},\"articleSection\":[\"Analysis\"],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"CommentAction\",\"name\":\"Comment\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/response-to-pro-choice-blogger-youre-begging-the-question\/#respond\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/response-to-pro-choice-blogger-youre-begging-the-question\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/archive.liveaction.org\/news\/response-to-pro-choice-blogger-youre-begging-the-question\/\",\"name\":\"Response to pro-choice blogger: you\u2019re begging the question - 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